Curse

PinkMonk · Jan 14, 2006, 02:14 PM // 14:14

What do we see?
Oh yeah,new players trying to learn the game. they face iway. dead.
Result of this? probably throw the game our of the window.

Ah they can't join ranked teams,cos everyone,thanks to iway, has got ranks, so new players feel even more pointless. Join iway or die. great. Real choices there.

Of course,iway presents no problems for experienced players (me included)
But I am also sick of high rank teams who treat iway as no threat, as it steamrolls over them...

I know some people will just reply 'iway is for noobs..anyone can beat it'
yeah i can beat it,everytime,so what about it. I mean the new - middle players.its death for them.
For those of us that can beat it.Its so BORING. I have lost many fellow players for this single reason alone.

AreneNet, your game is broken lads. Fix it,or you're going to lose a lot of people.
Being cynical, I could believ that maybe you dont care as they've given over the money for the game. But these people will soon be telling their prospective buyer mates, 'dont bother'.

Fix it.How many times have people said it? Fix the damn 'iway' skill. Just dont make it work with pets. Come people,its not hard. give me the damn code,I'll fix it for you. Or better still limit the number of a character class allowed in one team. I dont care how you do it,just do it.

And Miss Grey or whatever your name is; look at tombs. LOOK at it. see what a nonsense it is?

And don't tell me that you do...cos you dont. There was a gold seller in Tombs for over 1 month, a while back. Nothing was done.

Please give us back the tombs we all used to love playing. You have such a superb game in your hands, but you're throwing it and your fans away.

Fix it, or its just going to turn into one big iway competition...
...o....too late....

Rant ends. thanks for reading.

dammit I spelled AreneNet wrong.

Yanman.be · Jan 14, 2006, 02:35 PM // 14:35

i'll tell you one thing...iway will work even without iway

just give us more counters against iway..don't nerf iway itself

yangster · Jan 14, 2006, 02:48 PM // 14:48

You still spelled it wrong, it's ArenaNet. I'm pretty sure the devs already knows about this, don't be blaming Gaile Gray, because she's one of those public relation people. They were probably busy setting up the tournaments so no time nerfing skills. If you have read one of the threads about chatting with Gaile, you would have seen that there's going to be a BIG update after the tournament.

Did you report the gold seller? If you didn't then of course Anet won't know about it, there too busy with other stuff unless someone notifies them.

Yanman: Do you really think there needs to be more counters? There's already enough counters, the only way to stop IWAY is to nerf the skill by having it apply to players only and not pets, or something like that.

Yanman.be · Jan 14, 2006, 02:55 PM // 14:55

you're right, there's enough counters allright, maybe just point them out easier...
i have nothing against iway, i often join a rank 9+ iway pug because i just want to play, without having to wait an hour before we're all set...
i DO hate iway because, most of those pve iways used to be w/mo, rerolled to w/r in the desert, and actually can do something with their character :/

Tellani Artini · Jan 14, 2006, 03:15 PM // 15:15

So amateur players can't beat a cookie-cutter 8v8 build? What's wrong/surprising with that?

If you want to make a difference, gather the amateurs together, teach them how to beat IWAY, and do it. As far as nerfing, IWAY does not seem to be a broken skill in the way that nature's renewal, for example, was broken.

The Primeval King · Jan 14, 2006, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Better yet, just delete the skill IWAY. Nobody uses it unless it is for an iway team anyways.

But leave Gaile Grey out of this!

SaintGreg · Jan 14, 2006, 05:48 PM // 17:48

It's not the "I Will Avenge You" skill thats the problem at all. If the skill was deleted, IWAY pugs would still exist, probably in the same amount as now. As it is IWAY was already nerfed because before you could use IWAY and a stance attack speed boost to get 50% faster attack speed, they changed it that so IWAY and stance boosts overlapped have it capped at 33%. Did that change much? Not really.

The simple fact is that warriors have alot of armor, and deal out the highest single target dps. Top guilds often run 3-4 warriors, because they know this too. I don't think nerfing warriors would help, because people would just find a new FoTM...

BigTru · Jan 14, 2006, 06:20 PM // 18:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yanman.be

i'll tell you one thing...iway will work even without iway

just give us more counters against iway..don't nerf iway itself

Which is quite funny, seeing as how Warriors have the most counters toward them than any other profession.

cR4zY-n^ · Jan 14, 2006, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Nerf Order.

Chev of Hardass · Jan 14, 2006, 09:41 PM // 21:41

The order range is too far, and EoE has a range that is FAR to large, and still does damage if you do not have it on you (at times).

I never really thought about this before, but the res sig ressing to 50% could be a very effective counter. WIth no healing, a 50% res sig will largly reduce a IWAY teams ability to chain res.

m30wc0w · Jan 14, 2006, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Primeval King

Better yet, just delete the skill IWAY. Nobody uses it unless it is for an iway team anyways.

But leave Gaile Grey out of this!

Delete IWAY... Nope

Modified IWAY

-Less Iway builds=Less retards who abuse it

BUT

No IWAY= No 12 year old kids who suck at this game so they use IWAY which means no n00b to pwn

Modify IWAY, make it only work with team mates

I pwnd U · Jan 16, 2006, 05:30 AM // 05:30

well apparently all you got your wish. rumors floating around say that indeed the skill "I Will Avenge You" is to be nerfed. I am unsure exactly how as no one really knows. My best guess would be that indeed they will make IWAY uncompatiable with pets. Therefore if your pet dies you can not use it to add to IWAY's stregnth. While this may seem odd since pets are techincally considered Allies (they appear under Allies in the Party) but IWAY is to be nerfed. Wether or not people will stop using the IWAY build or not is another question. In my exprience a good IWAY team can go on without the added effect of the IWAY skill. So even though IWAY is to be nerfed according to the rumors, it may not end IWAY teams.

PLEASE NOTE: All this is either a RUMOR that I have seen circulating or MY OWN ASSUMPTIONS! None of this is based on any facts that i know of.

imaginary friend · Jan 16, 2006, 05:37 AM // 05:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by I pwnd U

well apparently all you got your wish. rumors floating around say that indeed the skill "I Will Avenge You" is to be nerfed. I am unsure exactly how as no one really knows. My best guess would be that indeed they will make IWAY uncompatiable with pets. Therefore if your pet dies you can not use it to add to IWAY's stregnth. While this may seem odd since pets are techincally considered Allies (they appear under Allies in the Party) but IWAY is to be nerfed. Wether or not people will stop using the IWAY build or not is another question. In my exprience a good IWAY team can go on without the added effect of the IWAY skill. So even though IWAY is to be nerfed according to the rumors, it may not end IWAY teams.

PLEASE NOTE: All this is either a RUMOR that I have seen circulating or MY OWN ASSUMPTIONS! None of this is based on any facts that i know of.

Good Iway=Oxymoron

Banebow · Jan 16, 2006, 06:03 AM // 06:03

So, will IWAY get nerfed? Well, who knows. It seems strange that "I will avenge you" will trigger off of pets, but I think orders are a bigger problem (tis a good thing that orders don't effect pets). Even if a warrior is not iway'ed, s/he can still use tiger's fury to get the same attack speed boost, so the only difference is no health regen. But force the unprotected order necromancer to run up near the front lines, and you have an easy shot at an important member of the team, a member who is adding a very good amount of damage output. It is not like these necros are hard to kill, what with no healing support, the only problem is that to go for him, many times the group will have to extend itself to a large degree. Cut order range in half, or reduce it to aggro bubble range, and suddenly iway will be vulnerable on yet another front.

Though, on the other hand, does it really need a nerf? It is not like air spike was ever nerfed to an unusable state, rather, groups started countering it. No, the problem people have with iway is that it is so bloody common. Energy denial mesmers looking for pugs stand around for hours, while the iway warrior gets picked up in moments. Not to mention the fact that while iway is great for fame and faction farming, it does not win the halls often, and is good for just those two things, fame and faction farming. You are unlikely to win more than 3 battles in most cases, but for the "farming" that these people do, that is enough. As such, battles in tombs have become pretty dull, besides the occasional balanced build run by a guild that you come up against. In the end though, iway is not in need of a nerf because it is "uber strong". People want it nerfed so that other builds are seen in tombs. I would not want to be the one at ANet trying to decide whether a perfectly valid and easily countered skill combo should be rebalanced, even though it does not need to be. That path can lead to skill changes for the sake of skill changes, rather than for the sake of balance changes.

twicky_kid · Jan 16, 2006, 06:23 AM // 06:23

The problem with iway is you cannot stop it with a single nerf.

First lets start with iway. Its a good skill but not that great if the pets where not counted. It would be still usable but not overpowered. So you change iway. That is not going to stop the pets. Pets are used as bodies not just for iway but for wells.

Orders are the powerhouse of iway. Without orders iway would be very slow to kill anything. So you reduce the dmg from orders. The spirits are still stopping any chance to monks to gain a foothold.

With predatory season and natures you can out dmg any monk. Add eoe aoe dmg and its instant death.

It would be like smiting nerfs all over again. They would not just nerf 1 skill but the entire bar. Personally I don't care to see that happen.

The true problem with tombs is the rank system itself. If no one had rank you everyone would be equal again and there wouldn't be all this elitism turning new players away.

Only chance to do anything in tombs if you are below rank 3 is with your guild. Once you hit rank 3 you will find groups easier but still have to spend 30+ minutes finding a group.

Ensign · Jan 16, 2006, 08:10 AM // 08:10

I wish people would stop pretending that the skill "I Will Avenge You!" matters *at all* in an iWay build.

The build is popular for two reasons: it put emphasis on individual playskill and de-emphasis on team coordination; and it is an aggressive build that wins and loses quickly, making it ideal to run up the ranks. The former is a bigger deal, though, because it gets around the death of most pickups - terrible to non-existant coordination. iWay is a modular build where you plug people into roles and go play, and that's really all you need.

I've said before that iWay is the 'best' tombs build, and I still feel that way to an extent. There are likely better versions, but ultimately I'm sure that the best build in tombs is a frontloaded Resurrection Signet build. With readily-accessible morale bonuses and the power of the Ressig, overwhelming pressure is the only way to go.

Peace,
-CxE

tafy69 · Jan 16, 2006, 08:26 AM // 08:26

IWAY is the ultimate pressure build, nothing even comes close to the pressure IWAY puts out.

Been watching Observer Mode lately and its not surprising that top100 guilds lose to IWAY 66%+ of the time. Hardly any guilds seem to play tombs now, prob because its embarasing to lose to iway in public...

Bloodweasel · Jan 16, 2006, 09:53 AM // 09:53

I have heard many times that ANet will never change the 8 skill max. 'Magic Number" I think I heard the Frog call it.

However, this is a large part of the FoTM problem. 8 Players with 8 skills gives 64 skills. Skill Slots rather, as there will be much overlap, particlarly in the warriors, especially when they take the same weapons (3 weapon classes ensures duplicates if 4 warriors). 2 Heal Monks will take the core skill set each and then complementary extras.

With the limited amount of skill slots, a group can't afford to take specialist 'anti IWAY (FoTM ATM)" characters without reducing their capacity on other build types. Sure, Anti-IWAY is often antiwarrior (blind/weaken/KD - see AirBlinder) and so works vs any warrior/ranger heavy build, but to counter the necro component takes more characters/mezzers.

Give us more skills and we can take a core pack that makes us who we are and give us room for 'extras' that can be swapped out without ruining the main build. So many builds have ResSig/optional as a last slot when ResSig should be an automatic 9th slot.

The Attribute Max combined with the Skill Max should allow for a balance between diversity and maxxing abilities. Current numbers allow for 2 maxxed attributes naked and 3 overaverage if runes are used. 1 of these attributes is normally the character exclusive, often with a global bonus and little addition to skills. There are always points left over when maxxing 2 and little point adding just one skill low attributed so it gets wasted. Adding 2 skills (from 8, so a quarter) justifies more points than the bare minimum left over from maxxing so promotes even 3 way point splits.

Certain 'perfect' skill combinations just promote 1 direction or the other, either maxxed or 3way split. There is no room to take a 'core' pack and speculative skills on top. Your build either suits the opposition or it doesn't and skill in playing takes 2nd place to getting a perfect build. Sure, knowing what your opponent likes to use is an advantage, because they either that that or something completely different. Relying on that guess makes a mockery of player skill in PvP.

Form of Argument - "Opponent is mostly likely to take this so I have to take that to counter." It just encourages FoTM builds and the counters as if you don't take one of the 'Anti' builds you will lose to the FoTM. FoTM = everyone is using it so you will encounter it most often.

Either increasing the skill slots or the attribute points would allow characters to form builds that were not just single job specific. Slight adjustments either way would allow for specialists to remain just as powerful while allowing people who like secondaries (even if its just another elly element) to have an effective skill set. As it is people use non-pathed skills because they get the full effect without the attribute points in so short supply.

Personally I go for adding more skill slots rather than attribute points. A few more slots would allow for the inclusion of a couple of the lvl3 (6 attribute points left from maxxing 2 attributes) skills without ruining the main maxxed skill set. At the same time it would allow for a split attribute character to have enough of each type of skill to justify both sets with out reliance on 'special' combos the stack together.

FoTM will always be the way ( what ever the FoTM is) if there are only a limited combination of skills available. Yoiu have to be able to include a counter to the FoTM without ruining your primary build or all you take is an Anti build. This will lose, in the long run, to anybody that is ignoring losses to the FoTM (assuming HoH) and laughting at FoTM Antis. Find the FoTM anti that works against everything else and you don't have an FoTM, by definition.

Congrats to Anet for trying to get the minimun skill amount to skow that most skill. However there are many examples to show that the number is a liilte too low. Reference the complaints about runner/griefers in CA. With 4 players and only 8 skills (32 max skill types, less skill range) each, all randomly combinded, there is no room for anyone to take anything beyond their basics. So runners are either cater to (against) or ignored. So they run about impervious or they die fast, nothin inbetween.

Its like way paper/sissors/rock at, cept that there are seveal types of each and they combine for a total win. There is just too little range of individual character cobinations. 'An Air Elly has to take this, a Fire Elly that,, a W/Mo can't take this (cos mending sucks... lol), an Prot Monk that'. You can't even throw much of a surprise skill in without making your others much weaker so you might as well boost it and take several of that attribute.

Chev of Hardass · Jan 16, 2006, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I've said before that iWay is the 'best' tombs build, and I still feel that way to an extent.

Please tell me that your warriors did not use the skill IWAY, when you won the hall with your iQ/Te IWAY group last night.

Kabale · Jan 16, 2006, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

The build is popular for two reasons: it put emphasis on individual playskill and de-emphasis on team coordination; and it is an aggressive build that wins and loses quickly, making it ideal to run up the ranks.

This can be said about all the FotMs that have showed up so far. Spirit Spam & Dual Smite had pretty much the same characteristics... However there were some differences:

Spirit Spam matches could last a veeery long time.
Dual Smite was 'balanced', and had slight coordination.

Considering IWAY contains neither of the above (unless of course you're not a PUG IWAY...), means the people complaining about the FotM has never been louder.

Should be interesting to see what Anet does tho.